4K from Computer to Datapath over Cat5

Bro, does your rig even lift?
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Wasko
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4K from Computer to Datapath over Cat5

Post by Wasko » Tue Jun 26, 2018 20:30

Hi Guys,

My goal is to output video from my server over distance to two datapath x4's to simplify setup (3840x2160 @ 30hz to be split to 4 1080p outputs).

I've heard of this being done with fiber optic cable, which is outside of the budget from what I've seen in my research.

This is the basic pipeline I am envisioning (in order):

2 Displayport Outputs @ Server
2 Active Displayport to HDMI adapters connected
HDMI to HDMI over Cat5 Transmitters
Cat5 to HDMI over Cat5 Receivers
HDMI to DVI-D Active Adapters
DVI-D to 2 Datapath X4's (3840x2160 @ 30hz)

I am not sure if such a thing as a HDMI to DVI-D adapter exists, for one.
I also know some HDMI over Cat5 extenders may not transmit 4k.

This seems convoluted to me at this point, I am confident there might be a better way to do this.

This would certainly be simpler with a fx4, but I have heard of others on this forum achieving this with an x4.

Please advise if you can, thanks!

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drazkers
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Re: 4K from Computer to Datapath over Cat5

Post by drazkers » Wed Jun 27, 2018 02:34

Wasko wrote:
Tue Jun 26, 2018 20:30
Hi Guys,

My goal is to output video from my server over distance to two datapath x4's to simplify setup (3840x2160 @ 30hz to be split to 4 1080p outputs).

I've heard of this being done with fiber optic cable, which is outside of the budget from what I've seen in my research.

This is the basic pipeline I am envisioning (in order):

2 Displayport Outputs @ Server
2 Active Displayport to HDMI adapters connected
HDMI to HDMI over Cat5 Transmitters
Cat5 to HDMI over Cat5 Receivers
HDMI to DVI-D Active Adapters
DVI-D to 2 Datapath X4's (3840x2160 @ 30hz)

I am not sure if such a thing as a HDMI to DVI-D adapter exists, for one.
I also know some HDMI over Cat5 extenders may not transmit 4k.

This seems convoluted to me at this point, I am confident there might be a better way to do this.

This would certainly be simpler with a fx4, but I have heard of others on this forum achieving this with an x4.

Please advise if you can, thanks!
I tried this once, and it totally didn't work. We ended up sending 1080p and upscaling on the datapath. But this was years ago and the boxes used had alot to be desired. but my gut instinct is that you need to send DVI-DL to get true 4k. Its the only way i ever got an X4 to take 2160@30. A good test is can you get 4k into the X4 with that same active adpater from a computer? If you can't get that working, you're cat5 box probably isn't either.

I remember you had some issues getting 4k from a computer to these boxes, did you find a hdmi to dvi-D active adapter that worked with a computer?

If it was me, i'd just convert everything to SDI at the box and run sdi for the run. You can get some crazy affordable hdmi to sdi boxes these days.

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Oaktown
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Re: 4K from Computer to Datapath over Cat5

Post by Oaktown » Wed Jun 27, 2018 14:38

How far do you need to extend?

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Wasko
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Re: 4K from Computer to Datapath over Cat5

Post by Wasko » Wed Jun 27, 2018 14:49

Oaktown - about 50 - 75ft would probably do it for the event that's soon on the horizon. In the future, the end goal would be to send the 4k signal up to my two datapath units on truss, as I have read you describe before. It was actually one of the deciding factors in buying these two x4's.

Drazkers - I'm completely open to using SDI, and some of the AV companies in my city have some equipment for rental. Most of it from what I am reading will not support 2160p @ 30hz (like the Theatrixx Xvision SDI Converter). The other complication with SDI/HDMI converters (and HDMI in general) is the task of converting it back to DVI-DL to go into the Datapath, which is not as simple (or inexpensive) as I would have thought.

Having said all this, I'm definitely open to getting the right gear to accomplish what I'm looking to do within financial reason. It's just narrowing down the right converters / cabling for the job.

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Oaktown
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Re: 4K from Computer to Datapath over Cat5

Post by Oaktown » Wed Jun 27, 2018 15:25

Oaktown - about 50 - 75ft would probably do it for the event that's soon on the horizon. In the future, the end goal would be to send the 4k signal up to my two datapath units on truss, as I have read you describe before. It was actually one of the deciding factors in buying these two x4's.
If you're going 75ft, you should be OK with DL-DVI cables and a booster. I would do 50ft>booster>25ft. I typically use Cable Matters cables and they seem to work great and here is what I use as a DL-DVI booster.
Drazkers - I'm completely open to using SDI, and some of the AV companies in my city have some equipment for rental. Most of it from what I am reading will not support 2160p @ 30hz (like the Theatrixx Xvision SDI Converter). The other complication with SDI/HDMI converters (and HDMI in general) is the task of converting it back to DVI-DL to go into the Datapath, which is not as simple (or inexpensive) as I would have thought.
Using SDI out of your X4 works as well but now you're dealing with 1 adapter and 2 converters per output (DVI/HDMI -> HDMI>SDI and SDI>HDMI) AND you have to run SDI everywhere.
Having said all this, I'm definitely open to getting the right gear to accomplish what I'm looking to do within financial reason. It's just narrowing down the right converters / cabling for the job.
If you don't have the X4 hardware yet, I would say get the FX4 and use HDBaseT instead of fiber optic. If you already have the X4 hardware, I would think the way to go is fiber optic. I have used the Gefen extenders for years and love them as I have never had any issues! But my ultimate recommendation would be to sell the X4 and buy FX4 + HDBaseT instead of investing into DL-DVI fiber optic. You could also go HDMI over fiber optic, check out the datapath.us weblink

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drazkers
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Re: 4K from Computer to Datapath over Cat5

Post by drazkers » Wed Jun 27, 2018 19:49

Great question by Oaktown about length, I gotta agree with him that finding a 75’ DVI-DL cable is probably the safest if you own a X4 and that’s your distance.

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Arvol
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Re: 4K from Computer to Datapath over Cat5

Post by Arvol » Thu Jun 28, 2018 18:32

Welcome to my current problem....

At the distance you are going, Oaktown hit it on the head, just use a long DVI cable with boosters. You can even get a 50-75' DVI Fiber cable for pretty cheap.

My main question is:
Is this an install or something that will be put up and taken down often? What environment will it be in? Will people be near the cable?

Not to hijack this, but my current problem is I need 4k@60 over 300' for festivals. I just found out that Fiber is the ONLY solution at the moment.

I personally don't trust HDbaseT for concerts. If it's an install you're golden. But that's not the case for me.

12G-SDI sounds amazing on the books, sadly there isn't any manufacturer making transmitters that can push 12G 300' without throwing a DA/Re-Clocker in line (which I can't do down a field of people).
So for me, Fiber it is ;(

You could get away with 6G-SDI, I have sent 6G-SDI 300' all day without any issues.
But once you add the cost for converters ($500 for TX and $500 for RX, then the cable $250) you're better off going with Oaktowns recommendation of just getting an Active DVI cable.

On a side note If you ever need to send 4k@60 300'. I recommend using Whirlwinds Battleflex Quad Channel Fiber SM $1400. And AJA's 12G-SDI TX and RX converters WITH the fiber modules added. $1,000 for TX and for $1,000 for RX.
Black Magic did not build their Teranex's to TI chipset code and you'll have one hell of a time getting your boxes to work if you change sources or eDID's once they boxes are sync'd (the fix is to unplug the SDI cable and force a re-sync).

The other good thing about fiber is that you leave doors open for future expansion (8k+) since the cable is capable of the future bandwidth, where as you're locked into a capped bandwidth on SDI cable.
Just get the good tactical fiber that "Methed out stage hands" can't destroy (slowly raises my hands then cries inside)

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Oaktown
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Re: 4K from Computer to Datapath over Cat5

Post by Oaktown » Fri Jun 29, 2018 14:12

I personally don't trust HDbaseT for concerts. If it's an install you're golden. But that's not the case for me.
I’ve ran countless shows and never had an issue so can you elaborate why you don’t trust HDBaseT?

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Re: 4K from Computer to Datapath over Cat5

Post by drazkers » Fri Jun 29, 2018 21:42

Oaktown wrote:
Fri Jun 29, 2018 14:12
I personally don't trust HDbaseT for concerts. If it's an install you're golden. But that's not the case for me.
I’ve ran countless shows and never had an issue so can you elaborate why you don’t trust HDBaseT?
In my experience in concerts, companies that use HDbaseT, love buying the cheapest alibaba part. So black outs, flickering and randomness gets put on cat5, but really it’s the worst gear with poorly upkept cables ruining the rep.

My tour rider prohibites cat5 not because of the tech but because of the chances of failure in the festival game. Also it’s easy to carry afew decinators to fix things. So that’s my reason, not the tech just the very wide range in quality.

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Oaktown
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Re: 4K from Computer to Datapath over Cat5

Post by Oaktown » Sat Jun 30, 2018 02:46

In my experience in concerts, companies that use HDbaseT, love buying the cheapest alibaba part. So black outs, flickering and randomness gets put on cat5, but really it’s the worst gear with poorly upkept cables ruining the rep.

My tour rider prohibites cat5 not because of the tech but because of the chances of failure in the festival game. Also it’s easy to carry afew decinators to fix things. So that’s my reason, not the tech just the very wide range in quality.
I can see why cheap Chinese know-offs would be an issue but it would be the same problem whether you use HDBaseT or Fiber!

On our end, we only use Gefen & Atlona HDBaseT RX/TX units and all of our cables are Ethercon CAT6a solid core copper cables with Ethercon barrels and RJ45 jumpers on both ends and I've never had any issues.

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